An Ongoing Conversation with a Swedish Anti-Semite
Why an anti-Semite? One good reason is this link (Palestinians defending their homes aren't terrorists) on his website.  The page on Troed's website is here.


(Note: The sig refered to is a link, listed below, posted to all of user
Troed's comments on the website Slashdot.
I support the Palestinians. So would you if you cared to open your eyes)

From: "Troed ..."
To: "Sailor Bob"

My sig contains as many factual errors as any media coverage of the middle east conflict in either the USA or Israel.

If I had the opportunity and a weapon I'd be happy to shoot Ariel Sharon. That is a statement from a caucasian white male, well educated, atheist, no jews or muslims as close friends - but someone who does not approve of nations occupying other nations, and supporting torture.

You're an Israeli jew?

I do hope you actively try to stop the building of settlements, and the
return of the land occupied in '67.
From: "Sailor Bob"
To: "Troed ..."

I'm still debating with myself whether or not this is worthwhile pursuing. I spent about three years, prior to my enlisting in the army, debating people on the Internet about the Israeli-Arab conflict. I found that 95% of the time talking to people is pointless since the vast majority of people just aren't
interested in anything that doesn't agree with their views, logic and facts be damned.

I'm writing this because I can't tell whether or not you're part of that 95%. I'm not trying to be high and mighty or anything, just open.

I'm hoping that, if you're interested, we can have an open and straight forward non-passionate discussion. At least as non-passionate as possible. I think I always gain the most from speaking with people who don't agree with me.

> My sig contains as many factual errors as any media
> coverage of the middle
> east conflict in either the USA or Israel.

I'm not sure how to approach this. You seem to care about this issue, so why do you give the impression that you're willing to make do with substandard
information for forming your opinions? We both know that the popular media is crap, full of inaccuracies and poor reporting, and it's seems that you're
comparing this site to the popular media.

Saying it's OK to rely on poor reporting for forming your opinion because most reporting is poor, isn't a valid argument.

Of course, I could be building a straw man here if I'm not understanding the intention of your statement correctly.

> If I had the opportunity and a weapon I'd be happy
> to shoot Ariel Sharon.

Why? And would you do the same to Arafat and Ahmed Yassin?

> but someone who does not approve of nations
> occupying other nations,

Your contention that Israel is occupying another nation, the Palestinian Arab nation I assume, is not correct. There has never been an independent Arab
state comprising of either the currently disputed territories or said territories plus Israel according to it's pre-67 borders. Please see my chronology at the end.

> and supporting torture.

This is a somewhat undefined term. Torture, I assume, typically implies causing physical damage to a persons body. What the Israelis do is not torture in that sense. Typically, when Israeli intel can legally show probable belief that a person has information about an immediately impending terrorist attack, intel uses what is called moderate physical force officially. It consists of a few things, including sleep deprivation, playing loud music, and being forced to stand or sit in uncomfortable or painful positions with a bag over
the person's head for extended periods of time. However, it must be emphasized that no permanent physical harm is done. In the case that physical harm
is done, the person can sue and press charges, which has in fact been done.

The issue of these methods is an intense point of debate within Israeli society. I personally feel that saving peoples lives takes precedence over making someone, who is effectively an accomplice to murder, uncomfortable.

> You're an Israeli jew?

Yes. I just finished my army service a few weeks ago. I was a network admin, not a combat soldier.

> I do hope you actively try to stop the building of
> settlements,

No, I do not. I encourage them. Please tell me why you think I should oppose the establishment of Jewish communities in Judea, Samaria and Gaza.

> and the
> return of the land occupied in '67.

Who would we return it to? The only states that have had sovereignty over this area in the past 500 years have been Israel (since 1967), Jordan (Judea and
Sameria, aka West Bank) and Egypt (Gaza) between 1948-1967, the British Mandatory Authority between 1923-1948, British Military Rule between 1918-1923, and prior to that the Turkish Empire.
From: "Troed ..."
To: "Sailor Bob"

At 14:44 10/14/2002 -0700, you wrote:
> > I do hope you actively try to stop the building of
> > settlements,
>
>No, I do not. I encourage them. Please tell me why
>you think I should oppose the establishment of Jewish
>communities in Judea, Samaria and Gaza.

Then I don't consider you an intelligent being.

Have a nice day - I hope it won't last long.

(and yes, I am serious)
From: "Sailor Bob"
To: "Troed ..."

--- Troed wrote:
> At 14:44 10/14/2002 -0700, you wrote:
> > > I do hope you actively try to stop the building of
> > > settlements,
> >
> >No, I do not. I encourage them. Please tell me why
> >you think I should oppose the establishment of Jewish
> >communities in Judea, Samaria and Gaza.
>
> Then I don't consider you an intelligent being.
>
> Have a nice day - I hope it won't last long.
>
> (and yes, I am serious)

This has been really bothering me for a while. Do you really believe that any Jew living over the 1948 armistace lines that seperated Israel from Egypt,
Jordan and Syria before 1967 don't deserve to live? That they are horrible criminals and deserve to die?

That seems to be what you're implying.
From: "Troed ..."
To: "Sailor Bob"

At 06:34 1/5/2003 -0800, you wrote:
>This has been really bothering me for a while. Do you
>really believe that any Jew living over the 1948
>armistace lines that seperated Israel from Egypt,
>Jordan and Syria before 1967 don't deserve to live?
>That they are horrible criminals and deserve to die?
>
>That seems to be what you're implying.

Correct. Stop occupying their land.

I would feel exactly the same if Denmark invaded Skåne.

(Note: Skåne is part of Sweden) 
> >This has been really bothering me for a while.  Do
> you
> >really believe that any Jew living over the 1948
> >armistace lines that seperated Israel from Egypt,
> >Jordan and Syria before 1967 don't deserve to live?
> >That they are horrible criminals and deserve to die?
> >
> >That seems to be what you're implying.
> 
> Correct. Stop occupying their land.
> 
> I would feel exactly the same if Denmark invaded
> Skåne.

If I understand, you're saying that hypothetically:

1. Denmark, without any provocation, invades Sweden and occupies Skane.
2. Denmark then settles Danes in Skane.
3. Those Danes that settle in Skane and those who support them deserve to die.

Have I got it right?  That's how you see the Jewish/Arab conflict?
From: "Troed ..."
To: "Sailor Bob"

At 04:32 1/6/2003 -0800, you wrote:
>If I understand, you're saying that hypothetically:
>
>1. Denmark, without any provocation, invades Sweden
>and occupies Skane.
>2. Denmark then settles Danes in Skane.
>3. Those Danes that settle in Skane and those who
>support them deserve to die.
>
>Have I got it right? That's how you see the
>Jewish/Arab conflict?

Yes. Those settlers very well know they're on another countries land -
evicting people already living there and taking military control. Since
those people know what they're doing - they also know they're guilty.

When Israel has left Palestine, Israel can complain about "terrorism" (if
there is any then) - not before. I have no sympathy whatsover for the state
of Israel (Do note, I don't care single bit about the religion. You have
the same God and the same ancestor.) as long as they're/you're complaining
about getting rocks thrown at you when you yourself are using modern
rockets and other weapons.

At my workplace I'm actively doing what I can to make sure we don't support
neither Israel nor the USA (since the USA singlehandedly supports the
terror-regime of Israel).
From: "Sailor Bob"
To: "Troed ..."

I just ran across an article written by a well known and respected Christian Arab journalist, Joseph Farah. I believe that it might have an effect on your opinion if you read it through to the end.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=31194
From: "Sailor Bob"
To: "Troed ..."

Have you heard of B'Tselem? They are a Pro-Palestinian Arab and Jewish Human Right's group.  You should read what they say about killing settlers.

http://www.btselem.org/English/Israeli_Civilians/index.asp

If you don't agree with this, then you are rejecting your own country's beliefs about human rights, justice, and equality before the law.

Do you understand that you could go to jail in Sweden for promoting the intentional killing of non-combatant civilians?
From: "Troed ..."
To: "Sailor Bob"

At 13:06 3/16/2003 -0800, you wrote:
>Do you understand that you could go to jail in Sweden
>for promoting the intentional killing of non-combatant civilians?

I'm willing to go to jail for my beliefs - yes. I have however never,
ever, said anything about killing civilians. Settlers, on the other hand,
very well know that they're building homes on another country, over their
old homes. Settlers are therefor military targets, and have absolutely no
rights of their own.

Do you realise that you're supporting a country condemned by the UN and
Amnesty since decades? I promise you I have the world on my side. The
current anti-american trends growing because of that idiot Bush threatening
Iraq with war will only help my cause, since without the support of a
strong US Israel is nothing.
Troed's Website


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